Episode Transcript hideshow
**Voice-over:** *I try to imagine a fellow smarter than myself, then I try to think - what would he do?***Announcer:** *Charge up your axons, ready your receptors and shift your lobes in to upper beta phase. You're listening to Smart Drug Smarts, the podcast dedicated to helping you optimize your brain with the latest breakthroughs in Neuroscience, Nootropics and Psychopharmocology.***Jesse:** Hello and welcome to Smart Drug Smarts. I'm your host, Jesse Lawler, excited to bring you our 44th episode in this podcast dedicated to the betterment of your own brain by any and all means at your disposal.This week we're having another episode dedicated to transcranial direct current stimulation (tDCS) - which we've talked about before. It's the application of electrodes to the outside of your scalp with every intention of affecting what's going on inside of your brain. And this time we're going to be talking to a guy who's really at the heart of the do-it-yourself transcranial direct current stimulation movement. A man named Nathan Whitmore - who's heading up an open-source project called [OpenBrain Stim](http://sourceforge.net/projects/openbrainstim/) which describes itself as a project aimed at creating a fully functional, safe and easy-to-use tDCS brain stimulator for less than $50, which is a pretty awesome goal. The whole open source hardware, software and firmware thing is pretty cool. One of the cooler aspects of what the internet has brought to us. Anyway, we're going to be talking to Nathan in a little bit here.If you hang around until the end of the episode, I've got kind of a meta-episode of the Ruthless Listener Retention Gimmick - where I'm going to tell you what you can do to promote your own wild and whacky ideas for Ruthless Listener Retention Gimmicks in the future, and This Week In Neuroscience and all the rest. In fact, let's segue to This Week In Neuroscience.**Voice-over:** *Smart Drug Smarts - This Week in Neuroscience!***Jesse:** Scientists at The University of Michigan have recently published a paper titled "Digital Colloids - Re-configurable clusters as high information density elements." This was recently published in the journal - Soft Matter. And, this deals with the technology that they're calling wet computing. Basically what this paper is talking about is a new way of storing data in what could be bio-compatible liquid solution. So these water soluble compounds that they're calling Colloidal Clusters, were observed by scientists to switch between states when placed in a liquid. This would be similar to the states in a transistor that are used by computers to represent ones and zeros. Basically, the way to think of it is anything that has discrete states could be used to store digital information. And these colloidal clusters seem to have the potential to be doing just that. Sharon Glotzer who's a chemical engineer at The University of Michigan and led the research explains - "If we could enumerate all of those different patterns - or states - and understand how you can go from one state to another, then it would be possible to encode information. The more colors you can have, the more states you can have, and the more states you can have, the more information you can store." In theory, a spoonful of water containing these nano particles could store up to terabytes worth of data. So, this is the very early technology from the sounds of it. They're just kind of starting to get their feet wet in wet computing - If you'll pardon the terrible pun. But the idea of a bio-compatible storage liquid is kind of interesting.I'm just going to give my million dollar idea away right now because I've had this ever since I was a little kid and haven't done anything with it yet. So if somebody else is going to beat me to the punch here - go for it. I always thought it would be cool if you had your appendix taken out and rather than letting that hole where your appendix used to be closed up, if there was something that you could put in there that would be useful. Use that space like a kangaroo pouch or, in this case, maybe a few dozen terabytes of digital information storage in Colloidal Clusters. I guess even those of us who haven't had appendicitis, we're just lugging around these appendixes for no good reason. And that just seems like a screaming opportunity to do something better with that space.**Voice-over:** *Smart Drug Smarts - Where we turn information into sound into bits into packet-data, that turns back into bits and sound and then into neuro-transmitters that release funds that release mail-order synthetic chemicals that cross the blood brain barrier to release augmented performance from your brain.***Jesse:** Okay so we're about to dive into the main interview here. I gotta admit for myself that I'm a software guy so software is a very comprehensible thing to me. It feels comfortable. I'm used to kind of mucking around with computer code. But hardware on the other hand is a totally different thing. It's like I probably couldn't take apart my toaster and put it back together again. So I have this incredible reverence when I hear about internet based do-it-yourself-ers that are building their own tDCS devices. Which is exactly what we're going to be talking with Nathan Whitmore about in just a moment here.I don't know if those of you who remember the original [Back to the Future](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088763/) from 1985 - with Christopher Lloyd when his character first shows up on the screen. He comes to the door and he's wearing this contraption on his head with all sorts of light bulbs on it in like a geodesic half-dome, trying to read people's minds. That's the first vision which comes to my head when I think of do-it-yourself tDCS. But I think this technology is lot less madcap than what Christopher Lloyd was in that role. And I've actually still not tried tDCS myself but after having done this interview - I'm not sure if I'm going to build my own but I got to give the stay accord. I'm going to get myself to my nearest tDCS retailer and give this technology the Pepsi challenge. Because I must admit I'm increasingly curious about it. Now let's dive in with Nathan Whitmore.**Voice-over:** *Smart Drug Smarts!***Jesse:** This is actually our second episode related to transcranial direct current stimulation, but for people who didn't make it for the first episode could you kind of give us an overview of the technology? As in, what tDCS is in a nutshell.**Nathan:** So tDCS is just a very fancy term for running a very small amount of electricity through your head. And why people do this strange thing is that, when you do this you send a little bit of that electricity through the brain and that can actually alter the behavior of nerve cells. Depending on whether you're sending a positive or negative current, you can make those cells more or less likely to fire. And it turns out that how likely nerve cells are to fire are to do with a whole bunch of things people who're interested in cognitive enhancement might care about. So for instance, by doing this you can improve your working memory, your short-term memory of yourself. Concentrate more, treat depression. It is actually a very flexible thing. You can do a lot of different things with this very simple technology.**Jesse:** So there's these sponges that go in different places on the scalp, that have some sort of liquid on them to make them conductive.**Nathan:** Yeah.**Jesse:** Is there like sort of a head map of where you're putting different sponges to get these different effects?**Nathan:** So what people use to position the sponges and make sure that they're positioning them in the right position is something called the 10-20 system. Where you actually either put on a headset that's calibrated to have attachment points at the right spot on your head or you measure a certain percentage of the distance from your nose to the back of your head and between your ears. And that gives you a coordinate system. So when you see a study that says - "We put an electrode at F3 and it improved cognition" - anyone can then find F3 on themselves and put an electrode there.**Jesse:** Very interesting. It reminds me of almost the weird phrenology experiments from like the 1920's and 30's. The idea that different bumps on people's head can have effects on their personality.**Nathan:** In a way it's very similar to that because oftentimes the reason that we say to put the electrodes on a particular spot is because we have data from MRI's and such. That spot lights up when you're doing a task. And you say okay maybe we want to improve your performance on that task, so let's see what happens if we make that spot light up more efficiently. So in a way you're looking at this anatomical thing and you're saying, "No, you're trying to tie it to cognitive performance." It works a bit better than the phrenology, I think.**Jesse:** What sort of divergence is there between one person's brain and the next, as far as where some of these points might be?**Nathan:** That's actually a really interesting question in the context of this thing; because it turns out that one of the biggest differences in that is whether you're left or right-handed. If you're left-handed you will have a lot of things that are normally on the left side of your brain, for right-handed people; if you're left-handed there's a chance that those will be on the right side of your brain or they'll be kind of mixed between the two hemispheres. This is not like the anatomy, this is like the functions that the different parts do. And this is actually why if you're in a brain study; lots of them just exclude left-handed people entirely. That's actually a concern for left-handed people who're doing tDCS because if you're left-handed we really don't know very well how your brain is organized.**Jesse:** Wow! That seems like a major oversight at this point. There's a lot of lefties out there.**Nathan:** It's kind of how neuroscience works, is that first we want to kind of figure out how the brain of a prototypical human works and then deal with all the messy human diversity. There's good sides and bad sides to that approach, I think. But that is how it is.**Jesse:** Thank you for the explanation. So tell us about OpenBrain Stim and when you opened the doors on that and sort of the goals of that project.**Nathan:** Okay. I started working on that project several years ago and it came after I had this unsuccessful attempt at building this other kind of brain stimulator which now seems to be complete pseudoscience, which was why it didn't work.**Jesse:** *Laughs***Nathan:** I read one of the very early articles about how people had been using this thing called tDCS to improve maths performance. And I'm not actually that great at math. So I thought, "Oh that looks kind of interesting" and I looked at it and thought, "Whoa actually this is really simple. I could build one." So I built a very simple brain stimulator which was also very scary and dangerous as it turns out. I tried it out and I got interested in it. I started looking around to find out what people were doing and I saw that people were building these kind of simple stimulators and there were also these commercial stimulators. So I was wondering could you make something that someone could build, that would also have the features of one of those commercial stimulators. That was where I kind of got the idea for OpenStim; to take these DIY stimulators to the next level.**Jesse:** So, that was a couple of years ago now and you've built a small online community around that?**Nathan:** The community kind of happened on it's own. When I first started doing it there were maybe a couple of dozen people on the internet who were doing similar things and now that's grown to several thousands. It's pretty crazy.**Jesse:** That's awesome!**Nathan:** What was interesting was actually like when I first released the OpenBrain Stim, no one was all that excited about it. And it was really this year I think with a lot of the publication and popular media excitement about tDCS which is when it really started taking off.**Jesse:** You recommend running any sort of tDCS system from your laptop while not plugged into the wall. Can you go into the details of some of the safety considerations?**Nathan:** So the main reason why you don't want to run plugged into the wall is that there's a low but entirely unavoidable possibility that there would be some sort of power surge. And if your laptop is plugged into the wall, that surge could theoretically climb up through your laptop's cord and through the cord that's connecting the stimulator to you and into your brain. And at that point lots of bad things could happen. As long as you're not connected to that kind of main power source, your laptop battery is actually very safe or you can load a program directly on to the board's memory and then just run it off a regular 9 volt battery.**Jesse:** How many amps are we talking about here, that are actually passing into the head?**Nathan:** So OpenStim usually reaches it maximum depending on how much resistance your skull and skin has. The maximum will be about 2.5 milliAmps. So to put that in perspective that's about a tenth of the power that it takes to light up a single LED. And I mean that's I think where some of the confusion here comes from about the safety of tDCS - is that people think of it as a form of something like electroshock therapy, which actually uses an amount of current that is hundred times of what is used in tDCS.**Jesse:** Right, it's not exactly like putting a lightening rod on your forehead.**Nathan:** Exactly.**Jesse:** So what are some of these subjective benefits that you've received personally from tDCS?
**Nathan:** The coolest one that I like to talk about is - I was trying to do a protocol that is supposed to improve your working memory by making your prefrontal cortex more active. And unfortunately when I was trying to do this I had the polarity reversed, so I was actually making my prefrontal cortex less active. And before I knew this what I was doing was I was working on this programming problem, I had not been able to figure it out for like a week. I turned the stimulator on - it's actually shutting down my prefrontal cortex and then all of a sudden the computer feels like it's programming itself. And I kind of like fly through this problem, I get it, it's a close state essentially. So what i think is happening actually is that the prefrontal cortex is good at kind of helping you learn to do new things but if you have something that you're already good at doing it interferes. So if you can shut it down when you're doing something you already know how to do, that's already established, it let's the more efficient part of the brain take over. It's my hypothesis.**Jesse:** What's the level of sort of community involvement at this point online - not necessarily with the building of the devices but with the comparisons of subjective effects of applying current to different areas on the scalp?**Nathan:** I think that there's a lot of work that happens specially on our [subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/tDCS). It's hard to say how useful it is because it is usually like forum posts, people talking about their particular subjective experiences. One thing that I'd like to setup if I ever have time to or see someone else setup is actually a kind of a systematic way of tracking the effects that are associated with particular places where current is delivered. Because I think that is actually something that would really benefit the community.**Jesse:** What are your goals for developing the online community over let's say the next year or two?**Nathan:** I think that one of the most important things of this DIY tDCS community and the community of people who are using commercial devices to do their own therapies and experiments on themselves - is defining some sort of standard for safety of devices in use. Because what we're having right now is just an explosion of available devices and it's very difficult to compare the devices figure out how safe they actually are. So one thing that I think really should happen, needs to happen and will eventually happen is crowd-sourcing a set of standards that you can apply safety standards and efficacy standards, that you can apply to any device. And you can then say to everyone that this device is pretty unsafe because it doesn't meet these parts. I think that is going to be the incredibly important in terms of the ability of people to trust tDCS devices and also not to get hurt while using them.**Jesse:** How many retail devices are available out there? I know there's the one - Focus - that's the only one that I've heard about. But are there many others?**Nathan:** There are three or four devices right now that are definitely marketed to the users of tDCS. There's the Focus, there's the Transcranial Technology's Stimulator; there's one that's just called The Brain Stimulator. Those are the main ones. The other thing that people use is the device called The Iontophoresis Machine which delivers current in the same way as a tDCS device does but it wasn't built for that, it was built for delivering medication to parts of skin, but it works. So people use that too.**Jesse:** How long is a tDCS session normally?**Nathan:** So in research you can do anything. Typically you'll see like 5 to 20 minutes. For people who're doing it to themselves as a DIY thing to improve performance attempts to skew towards the upper end of that. So maybe like 20 to 35 minutes, I think would be the typical range. The idea is that the longer you do the tDCS on yourself for, the longer the effect lasts after you turn the stimulator off.**Jesse:** And what is sort of the timeline to drop back to the baseline levels of potentiation within the brain?**Nathan:** So that's actually a really interesting question because the question is how do you measure that. And it turns out that we can only directly measure the excitability, which is how likely neurons are to fire. We can even almost directly measure that in couple of parts of the brain - like the parts that controls motor activity. So when you do that what you typically see is that you have most of the benefits or most of the effects of tDCS is gone within about 2 hours after the stimulator is turned off. But on the other hand you have trials now where they're using it to treat depression. And what you'll have is that people will go in and they will get tDCS for 20 minutes every 2 days or so and then over a long period of time their depression symptoms improve. So what that suggests to me is that maybe in other parts of the brain that effect can last much longer or maybe there are effects that are not what you're measuring just with that simple test. For example changes in gene expression, changes in myelination of neurons that occur over a longer timescale.**Jesse:** Has there been any instances where somebody has hurt themselves using tDCS?**Nathan:** Kind of. The worst thing that seems to have happened with the current generation of tDCS devices is that you can get burns on your skin. And that usually happens if you're using electrodes that are too small. So for example the Focus has very very small electrodes that go on your forehead, so when they started marketing it we started seeing a whole bunch of reports of burns from it. And that's because you're forcing current through a small area. But the damage from that seems to be confined to the skin. There is no evidence that it actually hurts the brain. There was some concern a while ago that if you send current through your brain stem you could actually interfere with neural systems that generate breathing. There was a single case reported in like the 70's that showed that but people tried to replicate it and they couldn't. So generally in terms of your brain this is actually thought to be very safe.**Jesse:** So if somebody hasn't really been involved, hasn't really known anything about tDCS prior to hearing this interview and they hear this and they get all excited - what's the best place for them to start?**Nathan:** Okay so I mentioned the tDCS [subreddit](http://www.reddit.com/r/tdcs) a while ago and that's this website that has a lot of people discussing tDCS. But we also have a wiki site that has a list of frequently asked questions and like things that people getting started will want to know. You want to know about safety and kind of what devices actually seem to work well. So I would really advice them to check that out and if they have questions to actually post on their too. Because there's a lot of people who are very experienced and who would be much more happier to help you out than have you fry your brain doing something wrong.**Voice-over:** *Smart Drug Smarts!***Jesse:** So thank you very much to Nathan for joining us for that interview. I'll put a link to the [OpenBrain Stim](http://sourceforge.net/projects/openbrainstim/) project and [sourceforge.net](http://sourceforge.net/). Sourceforge is actually worth knowing about if you're a technical geek or a do-it-yourself-er. It's a site for for all sorts of different opensource projects. Just looking at it now they've got over 4.3 million downloads and almost 15,000 code commits. So a very active online community and well worth knowing about if you're into such opensource-y stuff.Also a little fun fact - I couldn't think of a particular correct spot to put this in the Smart Drug Smarts episode format, but something I did want to tell you guys is that starting actually with last episode, we're going to be doing text transcripts of each of the interviews - in fact the whole Smart Drugs Smart show from episode number 43 on forward. We're not going to go back to the historical episodes into the yesteryear of Smart Drug Smarts but from now on that will be part of our normal publishing processes- to get the text transcript as well. So if you want to read rather than listen or if you want to have a quick way of text searching to go to a particular topic, that will now be at your finger-tips.**Voice-over:** *Smart Drug Smarts - Ruthless Listener Retention Gimmick!***Jesse:** And as promised - In our ongoing efforts to make the Smart Drug Smarts website a cooler place to be and make this podcast a cooler thing to listen to, we just added a [suggestion box](http://www.SmartDrugSmarts.com/suggestion-box). Which is what you'd imagine - basically just a page where you can go to if you see something when you're reading around on the web that you think might make a good "This Week in Neuroscience" article or even a oddball thing that might be a good "Ruthless Listener Retention Gimmick" or you see a study that you think would maybe merit being a conversation topic for a primary interview, for one of the podcast episodes. Definitely let us know. Just go to the Smart Drug Smarts [suggestion box](http://www.SmartDrugSmarts.com/suggestion-box). Drop us the link If you want us to name your name on the show if we use your suggestion, more than happy to do that. So yeah, as I've said before I've gotten a lot of great ideas for different episodes based on emails and comments that have come in from the listeners. So keep those coming and now we've got sort of a more organized format for you to submit ideas through.**Voice-over:** *Smart Drug Smarts - The podcast so smart we have smart in our title - twice!***Jesse:** Alright that is the entire episode number 44 cruising in for a landing. If you like what you heard here please take a moment to recommend this podcast to your friends, your enemies, your neighbors, your mailman and your grocer. Anyone you know who has a brain. The show notes for this episode will be online at [www.SmartDrugSmarts.com](http://smartdrugsmarts.com/do-it-yourself-transcranial-direct-current-stimulation/) including the links to everything we talked about here. And the handy dandy new little format we got that gives you the minute and second of the different topics that we're talking about. So that you can kind of skip around and go to just the juiciest bits. I will be back at you next week at the approximate same time and the exact same podcast and with an unchanged commitment to helping you fine tune the performance of your own brain. Have a great week and stay smart!**Announcer:** *You've been listening to the Smart Drugs Smart podcast. Visit us online at [www.SmartDrugSmarts.com](http://www.SmartDrugSmarts.com/) and subscribe to our mailing list to keep your neurons buzzing with the latest in brain optimization.***Disclaimer:** *Smart Drug Smarts should be listened to for entertainment purposes only. Although some guests on the show are medical doctors, most are not and the host is just some random guy. Nothing you hear on the podcast or read on [www.SmartDrugSmarts.com](http://www.SmartDrugSmarts.com) should be considered medical advice. Consult your doctor, and use some damn common sense before doing anything that you think might have a lasting impact on your brain.*